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Stats Removal

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34 comments

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    Phoneix Dreamscape

    SL removed their stats as they began to decline too. I am just saying what many will be thinking if the stats are removed.

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    Jim Tarber (Edited )

    Phoneix, it's not about stats values, it's about misrepresentation and bias. There was no problem with them publishing the numbers, it's how they were used to divide grids into "open" vs. "closed" and misrepresent the results to promote open grids at our expense.

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    Phoneix Dreamscape

    That may be so, but do you really think the general public or anyone besides the 4 of us still reading the forums will know that?

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    Beth Reischl

    There is more than the 4 of us, and quite honestly we were very happy to leave them as are. However, the response we were given was not acceptable to us.

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    Jim Tarber (Edited )

    If our own numbers are being used to divide us from the community we contribute so heavily to, and our request to just exclude us from the monthly summaries is not respected (since we aren't a hypergrid site anyway), then it just doesn't make any sense to continue to contribute our proprietary business info voluntarily so that it can be used to post articles biased against closed grids.

    Since we're almost exclusively the only closed grid included in their stats, this effectively removes the closed vs open bias from those stats reports. We won't let that blog site divide the metaverse community according to the pro-hypergrid agenda of that site.

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    Phoneix Dreamscape

    Hiding stats will be met with suspicion, regardless of how noble the intention is. Which reaction sounds more likely to you:

    A) InWorldz quit posting their stats, must be bad.

    B) InWorldz quit posting their stats, must be because their own numbers were being used to divide them from the community they contributed so heavily to, and their request to just exclude them from the monthly summaries was not respected (since they aren't a hypergrid site anyway), then it just doesn't make any sense for them to continue their proprietary business info voluntarily so that it can be used to post articles biased against closed grids.

    I would have to say the most likely reaction is A.

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Yichard Muni

    So this is why.

    I am sorry that things went to the point where we have to remove something useful for us us, because of what others do with it. But does anybody have a better solution?

    Maybe it is time to start to speak of Inworldz and Halcyon in our own media, rather than in hostile media.

    Isn't it what is happening soon, this wednesday 5 at 11:30 am? (Events C main stage)

    Jim, my suggestion is still holding: having a site for Halcyon, that everybody can see (not just the übergeeky Github page). Maybe it is too soon, but... 

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    Kelly4u Lynn

    I happen to agree with Yichard in the point it is sad  and I belive wrong to hide usefull info.

     

    But I also disagree that info was ever used in a negative way to hurt IW by HGB.

     

    I personally don't believe half the stats I see and gauge IW growth or decline by what I see  not by what you report.

     

    As a member of HG I read all info and see how things are as the big picture,  Not as in 1 grid or another, or a us and them. I will always love IW even if I don't live here and just visit. And Dynamic grid I do live on I love as well. I do not compere the two  I am happy,  that is all that matters.

    I say put on your big boy pants and post your numbers and let people think what they want.

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    Claret LaKhabary

    Nope, can't keep my fingers out of it [please don't use a rule when/if you slap them]. Yep, this time I'm going to step up and defend InWorldz on this one...

    The number of users [currently] on line can still be seen on the splash page. Knowing that there are [for example] 150 users in world, when one is about to log in, should be sufficient for the personal needs of most users.

    For anyone that can't see the actual breakdown of complex data [i.e. stuff that potentially would require publishing personal data about InWorldz users, which no one should have the right to access except the founders & staff], the other log-in figures are mostly just so much informational flotsam. [another example: 50 people could have left the grid... to be replaced by 50 different people [some or all of whom may have purchased regions].

    Frankly [ this is just this user's humble opinion], The nicety that was being provided has been turned into something "not so nice" [not aiming shots across anyone's bow, just a reminder though...]. There's no need to bark at the founders - they just plugged a hole in the dyke and then were nice enough to announce that they did so [they could have just let everyone not even notice it ... till someone did ... and then just let question "why" or even "when" without comment].

    If anyone really needs someone to blame, they should be blaming the person who caused the staff to have to stop other important work and go to the trouble of removing the information in the first place [I'm pretty certain they're busy enough they don't need to "make" work and would rather not have had to take steps to "fix" something that wasn't broke - if you don't believe me just go spelunking around in the mantis].

    [Further comments voluntarily withheld]

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    Kelly4u Lynn (Edited )

    To Clarit's post

     

    I sure hope you did not take it at barking at the founders. I know they are in business. as am I. I work in a multy million $$ business and am part owner of a million $$ business.

    My points are all info should be free and open for all who want to know.

    Ford can not say I no longer want my stats put in with Nissan. Because it puts a bad light on me.

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    Yichard Muni

    As I understand it, the problem is not with what the stat say. It is that they are still used to count us in a group where we no longer belong. 

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    Claret LaKhabary

    Yichard is correct about the information skewing irrelevant statistics [a point I didn't address here. Others covered that particular part quite well already - here and in the prior thread that is relevant to the topic]

    ;) ... Kelly, nothing I typed was regarding your post. I completed my comments and hit the submit button [refreshing the page] before I saw your comments. :)

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    Jim Tarber (Edited )

    InWorldz hasn't had any concerns at all about publishing the stats, and has made them available for many many years now, in fact expanding what was reported a couple of times, even during periods of temporary decline (like when Avination started to take off and overshot our success for a while, diverting many residents there until that didn't work out for them). But then IW recovered and grew well beyond our previous peak. InWorldz goes through ups and downs and we've always (voluntarily) provided the stats, because it is what it is and we don't mind that being transparent.  Interpreting the stats is in the eye of the beholder, and we've provided guidance on that where significant events have caused changes. The problem is that this site, and their use of our numbers, goes way beyond reporting actual numbers.

    As I've pointed out in the other HGB-related thread where we announced we might need to act, that site is named HyperGrid Business for a reason. That is a bias and it's okay for it to be pro-hypergrid or pro-open grid, just as the NRA blog might be pro-gun or the NBA site might favor basketball over baseball. But when the raw stats are churned into charts or statements that are intended to make it (falsely) look like InWorldz has lost 80% of it's activity recently, using comparisons to other stats that are not also applied to other grids, and attempts to get them to correct this go unresponsive, or to just exclude us, then we've reached a point where we're not going to actively provide the raw materials for their "closed grid negativity cake".  We're not going to actively provide ammunition for them to skew into their agenda.

    Kelly: HGB is hugely biased against us, and has been since at least the IW convention in Las Vegas years ago. We were doing our big PR event and HGB chose that moment, while we were away and busy, to post a hit piece against IW. It's been downhill since.  It's clear that HGB does not want "closed grids" to succeed, and for some reason, they don't see the bigger picture of growing the whole community, open and closed.  We don't need to actively contribute to that kind of negativity.

    We're just going to ignore them and cease actively helping them going forward and focus on our own residents, their needs and wants, and stop burning energy trying to get a site to be fair to a grid that is (appropriately) outside the scope of their hypergrid-centric agenda. It's okay, but for us to do otherwise would be a bit like a baseball team complaining that Basketball World magazine isn't covering them enough. :D

    We'll also continue to provide our software as open-source for other grids to use, and help projects like MOSES and IMA and others grow the Halcyon worlds, and maybe some day we'll safely and with proper content protection for our creators be able to connect Halcyon worlds.  But only if there is something considerably more secure than the wide-open Hypergrid protocol. And then we'll be in the "open grids" category again.  For now, I don't mind us being in the "safe grids" category, but as a result, we don't belong on sites biased against those.

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    Teal Etzel

    I feel this decision is really unfortunate - that a blog - for that is all this site is - has caused this.I understand the bias and have often been annoyed and frustrated at the twist they took on a story. But they are just a blog.

    I enjoyed the stats and have screenshot of key moments in InWorldz history - like when physics was implemented, when the 2x2s were announced - what happens to the stats for birthday celebrations etc and each year stats my own avatar birth date - a bit of personal diary keeping which are trivial bits of stuff and no doubt not important to anyone - merely entertainment (Stats as entertainment - that could be seen as sad indeed!)

    What does concern me is that I think it will be perceived badly and it will feed those who enjoy negative chatter about  InWorldz.  

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    Yichard Muni

    May I recall one more time the principle of "wonderful new grids which are growing fast". It remains the same since many years: it is quite easy for any knowledgeable person to install the Open Sims software on some cheap server. And, since they are "not commercial", they do not pay the personnel. In this way, they can offer much cheaper sims (about half the price of Inworldz, per prim) and even announce prices as low as $5 per sim. Of course with this they can easily attrack people, together with a policy of intensive canvassing, and active denigration of Inworldz (this is the function of their blog)

    Problem, this does not work: after some time, managing the "wonderful new grid growing fast" becomes a full time occupation, at the expense of personnal income and family life, and a large energy drain: managing all the technical issues, personnal disputes, etc. So that, each time, the "fast growing grid which will beat all the others" reaches a stagnation, and then declines, and is finally "closed by its owner because of disputes".

    All this for, I say it again, much less attendance, lower quality (I know I visited) and no IP rights.

    Inworldz is immune to this, as the personnel is paid, and we can also pay for a good web hosting and an active development effort. At worse, if an Inworldz dev does no more want to work for it, he can be replaced without increase in expenses. 

     

     

     

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    Yichard Muni (Edited )

    I like to repeat this each time, an "Halcyon hypergrid" and "Inworlzonastick" would be fantastic tools, even for us Inworldz residents.

    For instance a local grid "Inworldzonastick" would avoid cluttering the Inworldz server with all the failed uploads (when we upload something and it appears not to fit its purpose, so that we have to redo it). It would also allow us to test scripts and be sure that they work in Inworldz.

    An "Halcyon hypergrid" would allow small grids owners access to all the shops and creators in Inworldz, or reversely offer sellers and shops a much larger customer base. Indeed to make a grid, even a simple military training grid, needs a lot of things: skins, plants, pose scripts, doors, etc.

    Note: I use here the names "Halcyon hypergrid" and "Inworlzonastick" as provisional names. In facts Inworldz would not be allowed to use them, since they already contain other's trademarks. Inworldz needs its own names, which without doubt will be original. Is it possible to keep with Greek mythology and philosophers? This looks more cultivated than... the other systems, lol

     

     Edited: I must refrain of saying "us" or "we" when speaking of Inworldz LLC, because I am not part of the staff or company, and not affiliated in no way. 

     

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    Benski Trenkins

    I am one of those that took stats weekly from the login page, for my own enjoyment mostly.

    I am a number freak, just who I am. This makes me sad, but I fully understand why. 

    Again, this is not about Grids, neither was the previous discussion, it's about a tabloid abusing numbers to promote sertan grids over other Grids.

    I have nothing against any grid out there... I have choosen my home.

    I do have something against tabloids that abuse numbers and then come up with huge decline numbers based on statistics that proper calculations do not support.

    I said it before, I am a Betamind, numbers rule my world, I love them for being absolute. Anyone that tries to use alternative math basically messes with my world. Math is absolute, you cannot manipulate the outcome of a sum, inpossible.

    It saddens me that the numbers were pulled, I will dearly miss my monday routine of taking those stats, but I understand and support it fully. 

     

     

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    Taika Wirsing

    Any chance that there is a master list of Halcyon grids, and that they might coordinate to post and share their information (and growth) in some fashion?

    Taika

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    Jim Tarber (Edited )

    Taika, I've registered halcyonsim.com so that we can eventually put some general info up there (when time permits), but the nature of open-source software means that we won't ever really know everyone who uses it.  However, that's one thing a central website could help with, allowing Halcyon grids to voluntarily register to be known.

    That said, those interested in Halcyon seem to be a bit different than the OpenSim scenario, and many Halcyon grids are probably going to be internal grids, for specific organizations, and may not be trying to attract outside users. There's a kind of false assumption that growth of a new grid is a goal, based on so many OpenSim grids trying to attract customers; many Halcyon grids will not have users who actually ever pay anything, and aren't businesses. MOSES comes to mind, as well as most educational organizations. Gospel World may be the similar.

    The Halcyon grids that I'm aware of (because I've personally helped them with setup or issues) are MOSES, the new IMA grid, Gospel World, and Sonja's grid (I'm not sure of the name).

    The Halcyon open source project has been forked 24 times, so that's a good indication that there are at least 25 installations, although many are probably developer installations.  But I also know that some of the grids don't fork the project at all, they merely download the ZIP file associated with any release, so the actual number is probably quite a bit higher. (And as a bit of contrast, the OpenSim project has been around a lot longer but only forked 15 times.)

    But from the InWorldz point of view, while we do promote the use of Halcyon elsewhere and try to help, our focus does remain on InWorldz and its residents. You'll see some other contributions in each release that come from other Halcyon contributors though, and we're thrilled to see those.

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    Yichard Muni

    Thanks Jim for the new info. 

    It is enthralling, although it raises an alarm too. Here is why:

    I remember very well, in 2000-2002, well before SL started, virtual reality was the VRML language, and Parallel Graphics, a company who provided the only 3D viewer usable by anybody (an auto-install browser plug-in with obvious navigation controls) and simple to use 3D tools (like Blender, but we could learn it in half an hour). They were very supportive of 3D developpers, and we were often discussing of bugs and development.

    Then one day, ParallelGraphics modified their viewer to make it much less usable, and they stopped supporting developpers. What happened is that they totally changed their business model: creating scenes themselves, instead of providing tools. VRML died soon after, as nobody was able to provide a good viewer usable by non-techies.

    In a way, I understand them: creating scenes is an inexhaustible market, while just offering tools is necessarily limited. But the problem is that they scuttled the independent VRML community, by removing tools everybody could use.

     

     

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    Jim Tarber

    Yichard, I don't quite understand the alarm, or how that story relates. In fact, it's a good example of where an open-source project would have saved that community.  Businesses come and go (as we have seen many times with grids) and the best way to ensure that the community has a "vehicle" for continuing is for both the server and client (viewer) to be open-source software.

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    Yichard Muni

    Jim, the problem was precisely that they closed their system, finding much more profitable to build worlds themselves and confiscate the tools, not bothering with the hundreds of VRML scenes which became impossible to visit (including 7 of mine, of which one was never finished).

    And yes an open-source viewer would have saved the community. But on 10 or 20 such project, none reached the point where they would be usable by everybody, with a decent quality. So the VRML community dwindled and became out of fashion. 

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    Benski Trenkins

    I think Jim refers to the fact that the opensource nature of Halcyon has nothing to do, nor is in any form related to the removal of the stats on the Login screen, they are - in fact - 2 completely different subjects. 

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    Honey Chicken

    As they say   " there are lies,   damned  lies,  and statistics..."

    You can use statistics  cleverly to present  anything  you want,   I gather that's what seems to be happening  and understand why they were discontinued.

    Whenever there is an election, all the political parties  use statistics   to  claim a win of sorts.  eg  the losing party   doesn't mention losing  but   claims instead  more left handed potato  farmers  voted for  them   that any other party..  and they trumpet that  loudly and ignore   everyone  else's  views.

    such is life...

     

     

     

     

     

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    Yichard Muni

    I learned statistics in faculty. It is a science. It is an exact science, of which we can draw some amount of exact conclusions, even if it deals with random facts.

    The problem is not with statistics, it is that people don't really know the difference between exact statistics and a false demonstration with selects non-significant  facts. Example: red cars have more accidents. This is not a proof that accidents paint cars in red.

    In the instance, In the article in question, we can see a graphics where Inworldz seems to take a big plunge. Looking carefully, what we see plunging is a total, Inworldz plus "non-Inworldz closed active". It is the later which are droping. Inworldz remains relatively constant. A correctpresentation would have placed Inworldz at the bottom of the graphics, to show what really varied.  

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    Jim Tarber (Edited )

    > In the instance, In the article in question, we can see a graphics where Inworldz seems to take a big plunge. Looking carefully, what we see plunging is a total, Inworldz plus "non-Inworldz closed active". It is the later which are droping. Inworldz remains relatively constant. A correctpresentation would have placed Inworldz at the bottom of the graphics, to show what really varied.

    That's a good example of a bad chart, but what I really found misleading was the text accompanying the chart:

    "InWorldz’ share of all active OpenSim users has fallen from a high of 40 percent in the summer of 2012 to its current low of just 15 percent."

    The InWorldz monthly actives did not drop by 62.5% (15/40) nor did it even drop 25% (the incorrect interpretation of that change). What changed was that the total of all grids used has increased dramatically (according to that chart) and so with InWorldz remaining at roughly the same level, it's share of the total has dropped. Yet the statement makes it look like people are fleeing InWorldz. If you look at the actual numbers, this would be a completely false conclusion.

    Yes, the statement is technically accurate because it starts by saying "InWorldz’ share of all active OpenSim users", but it's comparing two numbers that should not be compared. The significant observation from this statistics change is that the total of all users on all grids is rising. Yet, they portray this as some kind of IW drop from some 40 number to some 15 number. There is no such real drop. 

    I think the most offensive part of this statement is the "has fallen" part. It's very clearly an attempt to portray this as an InWorldz decline where none exists.  It's the total across all grids that has risen instead.

    Further compounding this bias is the fact that no other grids were compared against the total in this way, as they would have also shown a significant "decline".

    This is a good example of real bias, misrepresentation, and deception.  I doubt that the author, David, even noticed this as it's probably following the instructions or past reports by Maria, but nevertheless it was posted anyway, and remained even after I pointed it out, a second month in a row.

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    Yichard Muni (Edited )

    Exact statistics are a fantastic tools, which allow to extract real hidden facts from apparently random and insignificant data. 

    Example: when we look in space, we see galaxies appearing as circles, and others as ovals. The question was: are all the galaxies ellipsoids, or are there spherical ones? No way to know from images (as circle ones could be elliptical ones seen from the pole). The reply was: after all the possible angles, there should be a certain proportion of elliptical galaxies appearing as circles. Observed proportion was larger, showing that there really are spherical galaxies. In the instance spatistics showed a fact which was hidden at billions lights years away.

    Another example was quoted by my statistics professor: during WWII in Geneva, there were stringent rules on the weight of common foods, like bread. A faculty professor used to weight his bread every morning. After some months, he went to the frauds fighting office, claiming that the average was too low. The baker was fined.

    Some times later, the same professor went again to the frauds office. All the breads he weighted were above the legal average, yet the baker was fined again. How so? The graphic showed a truncated bell curve, proving that the baker selected the breads he was selling to the professor. But the average, extrapolated from the portion of bell curve, was still under the legal limit. 

    Don't mess up with statisticians. 

     

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    Moonrise Azalee (Edited )

    I've voiced this elsewhere but I will voice it here also. Many people use Binder's stats. I am one of those people.

    http://binders.world/gridstats/now.html

    Looking at it this morning, this is what I see:

    So, not only are we neck and neck with OSgrid, but there is a list of 200 grids with stats (most of them tiny with only a few on) But a total user count across opensim of 507, and only 128 of those people were on IW. Alot of SL'ers I know use Binder's stats and when we have a number of highs, lows and current so similar to an opensim grid, WITHOUT showing our still VERY large active user base, it makes IW look far smaller than it is.
    To compare, here is our info from the week before:


    Now we see -  okay, so maybe we dont have a lot of users at our peaks and lows and they are comparable to OSGrid... BUT look. We only had 1291 regions OSgrid has over 9000! We have a FAR DENSER population. Also look.. we have way more active users than OSGrid.

    To pull that information as a way to avoid the negative sub par journalism on HGB really does not have the effect we want. Besides, as we've seen - it's not like she'll stop talking about IW. In fact, I would bet she's even more inclined to talk about IW because it gets people at her blog, reading and clicking things.

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    Jim Tarber (Edited )

    Well, I for one just disagree with that. People come to InWorldz for a lot more than just the stats articles in HGB or Binder's page, and those will continue. And we don't really care what editorial comments Maria makes, it's when she posts an "analysis" of our actual numbers, that give it a false sense of legitimacy. Because InWorldz is by far the leading non-hypergrid grid supporting commercial content and protected inventories (other than SL), there seems to be an attempt to show a trend of massive decline where that simply does not exist, in order to prop up the Hypergrid.  The HG numbers are actually a little better without IW included anyway.  But this has a bit of a negative feedback loop in that it readers think it is true, fewer and fewer visitors will come to check us out.  We'd rather stand on our own merits and actual traffic, especially considering InWorldz is #1 for activity and popularity.

    Yes, there is a cost to this in terms of free publicity, but it's marketing the wrong message to the wrong people. In spite of what Maria writes, the whole SL viewer-compatible metaverse is declining, and fancy accounting magic (like the growing number of grids various vendors or markets support) won't help if the actual counts are low.  Her new darlings are VirTec and now Gloebits, the latter probably because she can report a growing total (since it's new) and because the VirTec share was broken into grids... that included actual numbers from InWorldz compared to other grids, that she couldn't twist:

    So I'm not worried about HGB continuing to cover the actual use, rather than the former "relative change compared to a constantly-growing total" stats, or graphs with just InWorldz and not showing the same stat for other grids.

    The bottom line here I think is that we cannot determine whether any benefits of HGB outweigh the cost, and so there is no justification for allowing that blog to continue to misrepresent InWorldz, even if it means we aren't listed there.  It just means people will have to come see for themselves.

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    Yichard Muni

    Ok I am not sure it is a good idea to bring these comparisons here instead of the HGB. But since this topic comes again, I can add "my" stats:

    Number of "Elf Dream" members in "one large Open Sims grid": 9 (And yeah a fantastic growth rate of 200% since some years!! )

    Number of "Elf Dream" members in Inworldz: 84

    OK I know it is not a fair comparison, because I much more interacted in IW. But as would say any good statistician, the cause to effect relationship could be the reverse: I intereacted much less in OS since there is much less return.

     

     

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