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PayPal Cashout Changes

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  • Avatar
    Hairy Thor

    Never knew you did such small payouts.  I think the $50 usd minimum is a wise decision on IW's part. 

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    Do Negulesco

    $50 USD is a lot for small business. Better would be $10 USD - I pay some stuff in SL with the money I make in IW for getting more nice stuff to IW.

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    Zara Nyn (Edited )

    I'm sure it doesn't matter in the slightest but I cannot say how much I disagree with this. It seems far more like a policy designed to keep people from cashing out entirely. 

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    Zara Nyn

    This from someone who's been in business in IW for literally years ......

     

    Message from Rosie Lavochkin

    04/12/18 12:50PM

    News from Deviant Designs|In light of the recent announcement from Ele regarding financial changes to InWorldz, with regret I've decided to close both of my stores with immediate effect as it's no longer financially viable for me to do business on IW. I'd like to thank all of my customers past and present on IW and wish you all the very best for the future. Both Deviant and Bad Kitty will be relocating to the Digiworldz grid as soon as I am able
     
    I expect to see quite a bit more like this
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    Hairy Thor

    Noting what LL policy is ( https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/account-balance-r1/Section_.2.2?lang=en-US ), I think Ele has made a wise decision on this.  Even though LL may have a $10 usd minimum, they can also afford the staff to monitor fraud, and the lawyers to follow up on it.

     

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    Hairy Thor (Edited )

    @Rosie, I think if you read between the lines here, there are provisions for established accounts so long as it doesn't incur extra to IW.  I think you need to speak to Ele personally before you make any major decision.

     

     

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    Zara Nyn

    Yes yet another reason *not* to join IW can't be anything but wise. I know someone who spends teh vast majority of their time on the Canadian grid this may not be a big deal for.

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    Hairy Thor

    Not sure if your retort is directed at me Zara.  I'm use to hearing the rumours about Amara and I.  It is true, I hold a major investment in that grid, but we spend better than 90% of our time in IW.  GCG is a side line we both enjoy, but our vestment in IW is and has, always been a priority.  When others have picked up and left, we waded in the ebb.

    My remarks are about the fact that Ele's decision isn't far off the LL policy, considering they have more resources to deal with fraud.

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    Zara Nyn

    I reacted in haste....I disagree strongly with your position, but I can do so civilly. I still feel like this policy will prevent a huge amount of people from *ever* being able to cashout (I am in a position I *can* be patient, but I'm not everyone) but I suppose prevention of cashouts is, in the long run, good for IW's bottom line.

     

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    Beth Reischl

    We are more than happy to work with anyone, especially our long term residents, who've always been in good-standing. Whether renting or owning, we understand the need to be able to cash out. I'm already thinking of different ways in order to help those who do smaller cashouts (more along the $20-25) range, possibly based on age and transaction history. And considering other options for cashouts, the only issue is a global market. Domestically, not a problem, other than PCI compliance, but global market makes it very difficult.

    I understand that this is tough for some people to handle, and I'm happy to explain to anyone why this decision was made as it was. I'm also very open to suggestions and feedback on how to make it better while trying to preserve the bottom line for cashouts as a whole.

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    Kemi mcalpine

    The first suggestion would be to make it effective in one week. What is the emergency that you couldn't advise us in advance?

     

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    Beth Reischl

    I think the best answer is to ask the question: Why would you want a week warning? And I think you'll find that answer is exactly why we chose not to give a warning. I've struggled with making this decision for months, and put it off as such because I knew it was not going to make residents happy. But I also need to stress that the fees we eat for fraud, are pretty hefty. I had explained this in discord this afternoon, but I'll put it here as well. 

    The last major fraud we had, was over 30 transactions from one person, using 5 different credit cards over a 10 day period. That little fraud incident was refunded to every client who put in a claim against their cards, and ended up costing close to $1500. The person who committed the fraud was not able to cash out, but as you can see, there was nothing but major loss for us in it. In the past, all we've done is covered to ensure that our fees for cashouts were covered, but the policy from PayPal ensures we can lose money, very quickly to just a couple of fraud runs like this, where through no fault of yours, or ours, or PayPals even, that we all pay the price. Unfortunately, the only winners in this are the banks who issue the cards and the criminals who steal them. So we need to ensure that we make the account fluid to withstand these types of incidents. Just making sure we cover our fees for processing and mass payments is no longer enough.

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    Benski Trenkins

    Most people that have a problem with this and ARE in good standing with IW (as far as I can see offcourse) so I strongly suggest to take up Ele's comment that she is willing to work with you.

    Due to this, the bar has been raised for me too and yes... that sucks. But I understand why. The last thing we want is for IW to go into the red. Then we all loose.

    My suggestion would be (and I have to admit that I have no clue of this is even doable) is am opposite system from buying Izzies.

    Start with the 50 limit and good standing allows request for lowering that.

    If that's doable I dont know but it prevent popup accounts for micro cashouts and it also prevents sleeper accounts for that purpose since an inactive account that purely waits to age is not building up credit (as in reliability points if you will)

    Take up Ele's offer for feedback and her offer to work with you.

    Just my 2 cents

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    Beth Reischl

    That's also a good idea, we have something like that for the Buying of I'z. We may be able to implement something like that down to a $10 limit. 

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    Zara Nyn

    If it were me I'd prevent anyone younger than  3 months old from cashing out *at all* and make the 50 dollar amount flexible according to years spent in IW with the minimum amount dropping to $40.00 after a year, a $10.00 amount reduction per year of membership down to a minimum of $20.00. This would seem to accomplish fraud protection and all the other goals without being so difficult for long time merchants. 

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    Drebben Kingmaker (Edited )

    on this basis i will not set up any business inworldz , its just an excuse to have on hand thousands of dollars in the system that cant be cashed out. you can say what you want , but this is what it adds up to.

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    Beth Reischl

    Drebben, that would actually constitute theft. Something I'm not ever going to be for. Money spent, and left unspent should be returned. This isn't about padding our books for a mystical reason, just to say we have it. I've outlined the reasons, I've given a very explicit example. And I'm working with several people already to ensure they can continue to cashout while we make an imperfect system much better, while ensuring we can survive another fraud attack like we recently went through. If that constitutes "thousands of dollars" just laying around for you as a bad reason, then I have no words to offer.

    We make our money from region sales, not currency, never have. Currency was always an item that was more inline to give our customers convenience, not ever to pay bills. I didn't set the rules, I only have to play by them, and that last fraud loss, was huge. It wouldn't take many of those to completely remove the ability for our residents to be able to cash out currently, unless we pad that account to allow for the losses. 

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    Zara Nyn

    Drebben even I'm not that cynical........ I don't like this but after my initial reaction of anger I see no sinister plot. I need to remind myself no typing when mad.

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    Sophia Larkspur

    I actually have a business IW and have no problem with it, I would like to see it get lowered to $25 maybe for verified accounts, but I understand.  I don't take $$ out very often, I spend most of mine IW :)

     

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    Teal Freenote

    Agree with Sophia, would be nice if lowered to $25 for verified accounts. Sometimes tier is due, and waiting for it to get up to $50 would make it very late. The money I make in IW goes right back into it in tier. Just my 2 cents :) 

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    Sirena Noel

    Just my two cents US, but I do understand the reasoning behind this decision. And, I truly believe that if persons with established businesses and avatars in IW contact the powers that be, some concessions might be made. As stated, though I never considered it or had to in my former rl business, I can see where grids like IW could be easy victims of the fraud caused by stolen or hijacked credit cards or identity theft. Unfortunately, IW pays the price, fees, fines, whatever...that are involved. As for using the age of avatars as a part of allowing cashing out of lower amounts, I don't see that as much of a safety either. As someone stated above, age does not account for history, and if those involved in this type of "theft" are even halfway knowledgeable, then they more than likely have aging avatars already in IW. Maybe it was a bit more than just 2 cents worth.

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    Pussy Galore

    I totally agree with Ele's reasoning and understand why this has to be sustainable. I have money trees out and have noticed some residents creating new avatars after 30 days just to keep suckling at my "teat". Some of them are blatant about it like John Hunter aka JohnB Hunter  aka JohnC Hunter  aka JohnD Hunter  aka JohnF Hunter  all of which created 30 days apart.  I Heatedly told JohnF to "F'  off and he seems to have taken the hint.  Regarding cash outs.. I have always done this just before my sims rental is due and always taken more than $50 worth. If I could pay my rent with Izzies perhaps that conversion fee could be eliminated.. something to consider.

        As much as I would like to get rich at this I must concede that this is a hobby that I do mostly for pleasure and for me.. InWorldz  is the best opportunity to learn the ins and outs of virtual living and creating.

    If they didn't take care of their bottom line.. they would not be able to continue.

    I have bought many things from Rosie.. they were among my favorites.  I went on a spree the last time she left the grid.  I don't feel like doing that this time.

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    Drebben Kingmaker

    In my view hanging on to at least $50 from every business inworldz and every person, looks shady to say the least, in my book a transaction limit would be much better, say three purchases of money and three cashouts per day for example, In RL I live in Europe and we have a transaction limit per day, if ATM  three cashouts of 400 a day for example, and its based on your record , you have to wait three days to get your money out once you have paid in say if i transfer Euros to local money theni have to wait till its cleared the system, to allow for clearing, something along those lines seems better rather than hanging on to a flat rate for everyone. make it one pay in a day and one pay out but there has to be cleared funds in the account .

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    Sophia Larkspur

    With all due respect, Drebben - if those of us who actually are doing business IW don't have a problem with it, why do you?  I have looked at your profile - it is empty.  Of course there is always the possibility that you are doing business IW on an alternate account, but just as good a possibility that the only reason you even comment is to stir up trouble.  If you are doing business IW, then of course you know that a 'once a day' cashout' is impossible, since IW does cashouts only twice a week.

    If I am wrong and you do run a business on another account, then forgive me :)  Perhaps you should make your comments on that account.

     

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    Judy Dressler (Edited )

    Personally I have no issue with this new rule and I understand Ele's position to protect IW as much as possible from fraud impacts on revenue to sustain the grid we all enjoy.

    Do you really want to see cashouts stopped or uploads get a fee? Or regions move costs go up again (they just went down). One or two more frauds like she described will lead to this. Negative for all of us.

    All my cashouts go back to tier payments when I can. And that in my case needs more than 50US$ to allow for a virtual estate my renters enjoy, and builds many others do buy and use. I was never even on regions costs vs sales since 2011. Most of the time I need to add $.

    Honestly I don't see the point of cashing out small amounts unless one fears IW is not there tomorrow and your hard earned izzies go poof! That is a scenario I don't see happening anytime soon.

    The izzies I keep in IW are spend in IW. Yep I like new shoes and dresses also. Not always running around in stained pilot suit and I do tip DJ's when I can. Despite bad sales lately.

    Don't think the grass is greener elsewhere. They are more chances those non sustainable and less technical solid grids go down under well before IW. With your "local" currency.

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    Judy Dressler (Edited )

    From Hud updates on Discord:

    2018-04-13 Updates:
    - Sadly took Deviant Designs and Bad Kitty out of Explorer Hud database as Rosie closed and deleted her shops. Found empty parcel.

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    Drebben Kingmaker

    If all you are interested in is current businesses and not new potentials then ,i have no right to say anything, If you are happy with them keeping $50 in pocket and only helping those who are already here on a case by case basis, then there is no future for businesses here long term, ive been in Virtual worlds for many years , and this is the way to loose customers. If you think this is causing trouble, then there is no hope. Ive given my thoughts. To sum up cash flow will be frozen at $50 value of inworldz currency this is a game changer for new businesses and certainly for existing ones that may have been profitable. If all your doing is having fun then sure ,let the bank keep $50 of your money, there has to be a better way.

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    Zara Nyn

    The thing is done so I see no point in further beating a dead horse. Whether I like it or not (And I've made it clear I don't ) doesn't matter in the slightest. My point is, it's not our grid so the choices are accept it or not. Period.

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    Pussy Galore

    Well, I for one am not discouraged from starting a new business. So aside from animated furniture (sex beds)  and sky box rentals, I am now doing shoes. Mesh shoes.. nice ones.  Not to toot my own horn but it just seemed like an opportunity has opened up. Waiting for $50 to accumulate will not break me.

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    Zara Nyn

    As an aside. Rosie was our most direct competitor and she and I have butted heads more than once. I still can't be gleeful about someone who made such wonderful products leaving the grid. I just can't.

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